162: Conversation with Ken Wilson, Reclaiming Jesus Brand Spirituality

    This is why our coverage is so exciting! Today, we get to hear from a true, modern Reformation pilgrim.
    We've often compared our turbulent era to the age of Reformation 500 years ago. Just as in our era, the Reformation was a time when the world expanded at an exponential rate as news spread of the European discovery of the Americas' existence. People were moving everywhere in new ways. Americans had never seen a horse, until they arrived on ships from Europe. Europeans had never seen a potato.
    All across Europe, early printing presses churned out pamphlets. This was the rough equivalent of the birth of modern blogs.
    Meanwhile, the shape of faith was changing dramatically with the rise of folks like Erasmus, Luther, Zwingli, Calvin and eventually more folks like Henry VIII and Elizabeth I.

    Now, we're watching changes of similar magnitude sweep the planet. Many are calling it either a new Reformation, or the completion of a 500-year cycle of Reformation.
    Today, our Conversation is with a modern-day Reformation pilgrim, the Rev. Ken Wilson. Of course, you won't find that full version of his name many places -- not even on the cover of his book. He's just "Ken" to everyone he meets. He's proud to say that he was reared in the grassroots Jesus Movement of the late '60s and early '70s -- and, after riding the amazing ups and downs of evangelical revivals over the past 30 years -- he's on the Reformation road once again.

    Don't misunderstand. He's not homeless. On the contrary, Ken is comfortably settled in Ann Arbor, Michigan, not far from the Home Office of ReadTheSpirit. He runs a nationally influential Vineyard church. When top scientists, including Yale University's James Gustave Speth, organized a historic retreat with top evangelical leaders -- Wilson was in that inner circle. When Phyllis Tickle, the popular observer of religious trends, was looking for colleagues in her nationwide effort to promote a rebirth of fixed-hour prayer, Wilson became an important companion on that pilgrimage, as well.
    In fact, Phyllis wrote the Foreword to Ken's new book. (Click on the cover of Ken's book to read our review of it and pick up a copy, if you wish.)

    Today, we've also got a couple of video clips so you can meet Ken a little more intimately.
    CLICK on the video screen, below, and Ken will introduce himself to you. If your version of this story does not display a video screen, then -- Visit YouTube directly to watch Ken Wilson introduce himself and his new book, "Jesus Brand Spirituality."
    (There's also a video clip at the end of today's story in which Ken talks about what he hoped to achieve in writing this new book.)

    KEN: I'm interested that there are so many books coming out right now all looking at the future of evangelicalism. You've mentioned the Christine Wicker book that talks about the fall of evangelicalism. I'm interested to know how she makes that argument. There's research out there about the thriving nature of evangelicalism.
    DAVID: Christine is a smart journalist and it's an interesting book, although I think all of the books coming out right now are part of a debate, or a conversation, trying to sort out what is happening.
    Think about this: One person's claim of "death" or "fall" is another person's vision of transformation that's taking place, right?
    KEN: Yeah. Yeah.
    DAVID: The title of her book "The Fall of the Evangelical Nation" is quite a strong title. But you know it's possible, I think, for people to pick up your book and read you as saying something that sounds similar, as if you're saying: Our movement is dying and needs to be rescued from death.
    KEN: Sure.
    DAVID: If you read her book, I think it actually winds up saying something a little different than the claim that her book's title makes -- or perhaps a better way to say this is that her book will surprise you with where it takes you as a reader.

    KEN: So, which of all those books you wrote about, looking at evangelicalism, would you recommend? You know, if someone can just read one of the books. Which one?
    DAVID: I'd read Kimball's book about faith turning evil. That book provides us with the most helpful -- I guess the word is "toolbox." Over time, I think that book will help readers sort out the good and the bad in emerging religious movements.
    Of course, hey! I should have answered your question: I'd read your book, Ken. Right? That's why I'm here talking to you. I'm impressed with your book.
    KEN: (chuckling) Right. Right. That question wasn't a trap. There's so much out there to read right now. So much is happening. And there's only so much time to read.
    DAVID: (chuckling too) OK. I mean, what can I say talking to the author of the book -- I've read your book and marked it up all over, turned down corners of so many pages.
    You know, it's like being out in the front lines of a religious revolution, writing dispatches to readers who want to know what's happening. Does that make sense?
    KEN: Yeah. Right. Yeah, it does.

    DAVID: Without some help, these days, what context do people have to approach these new books, to listen to these new voices -- and have a sense of where they're coming from -- and have a sense of what's happening out there that they're trying to address.
    This book you've just written -- it's an important book. But, let's say, 10 years from now, you'd write a different book, right? This book you've written here is addressed to a particular time, a particular set of things you've discovered that have happened out there. You want evangelicals to take a dramatic turn with you here, right?
    KEN: Yeah. I didn't want this book to be a critique of evangelicalism, actually. In fact, that's the major problem with evangelicalism. It's turned in on itself. I realize that the subtitle of my book certainly makes a critical point. It's "Jesus Brand Spirituality" and the subtitle is "He Wants His Religion Back."
    DAVID: Yes, a strong title. Clearly a critique of where things stand right now.
    KEN: Well, the original idea for a subtitle was "Earthy, Mystical, Curious."
    DAVID: Interesting. That sounds so much like the book by Tony Campolo and Mary Albert Darling that we keep recommending so strongly to readers. That's right where they want to take readers, too.
    Hey, you're right out there with us on the front lines, writing about what you think is happening out here. So, sum it up. What are you seeing?

    KEN: What I see is that religion is about mediating spiritual experience and the really powerful stuff that's really driving things right now is this long, this almost subterranean spiritual movement that's been there all the time, even if we haven't always been able to see it clearly.
    DAVID: OK, so talk a little more about that.
    KEN: Yeah. Well, in the beginning, the evangelical movement mediated the first spiritual experience that was legitimate in the Western world -- permitting and shaping these experiences of new birth and feeling that your heart could be strangely warmed. And then Pentecostalism mediated spirit baptism, this evoking of the spirit.
    But those are two very narrow slices of spiritual experience. There's so much more out there and, finally, we're just busting out with a much broader understanding of what's possible.

    DAVID: I feel that we're privileged to be living in this era in which so much is unfolding. Just this morning before I drove to our interview today, I spent an hour on the telephone with Philip Newell, one of the chief writers in the Celtic Christian movement, who's got a terrific new book coming out -- a really brave kind of book -- like the kind of daring you've shown in your book. We're going to write about Newell's book in the days after we publish this interview with you.
    He's wrestling and you're wrestling with the same issues in somewhat different ways -- but you're almost first cousins in a movement. I think of these books as dangerous -- books that aren't bowls of warm chicken soup. These are books that are saying:
    The world you know is changing.
    KEN: Absolutely. This truly is a time when, if you're in the religion business and this stuff doesn't float your boat -- well, you're completely in the wrong business. You're just not seeing what's happening out here.

    DAVID: You're no stranger to social, cultural, religious change. Your whole life is a story of change.
    KEN: Yeah. I grew up in Detroit in the 1950s. My Dad was a member of the NAACP. My Mother and Dad were part of the Young Socialist Workers League. I've never been socialized to the official evangelical subculture in this country. My grandfather was an alcoholic in a Plymouth Brethren family that didn't know how to deal with alcoholism. So, he was the black sheep and my father was the son of a black sheep from a powerful fundamentalist movement. The Brethren were behind the theology that gave us the Left Behind stuff.
    So, I never went to an evangelical seminary.** I'm now a national board member of an evangelical denomination, the Vineyard, but I've never truly been socialized to the evangelical subculture.

    DAVID: So, that gives you some freedom to sort out what truly matters at the core of the faith, right?
    KEN: Yeah. Right. That means that I've got these people in my life who I know and I care about -- my sisters and so on. My parents, who are now passed away, were people for whom the evangelical presentation of Christianity in this country wouldn't reach them. Could not reach them. That's not because they were closed-hearted or something like that. The evangelical subculture, as it has been presented in many ways in recent years in this country, wouldn't have reached them because my parents were thoughtful people who ask probing questions that the evangelical presentation of the gospel doesn't answer.
    And it wouldn't work for me, if I were coming to faith for the first time in 2008 instead of 1971. So, it's all very personal for me. I'm writing this book for my kids and my sisters and for people who I grew up with who cannot be reached by the current thing that a lot of evangelical leaders still are trying to push.
    I mean, I came to faith in 1971 in the Jesus Movement before the Jesus Movement had been absorbed by standard-brand evangelicalism. At that point, it was still a free-floating movement, right? It was a completely anti-institutional, hippie, subculture phenomenon. Our origins were back there with the ecological movement -- that was cool with us -- and the anti-Vietnam War movement, too. Those were the people around us as the Jesus freaks like me came into the movement. I had no impression, back then, that I was expected to enter this whole evangelical organization and all the things people wanted to attach to that.
    I didn't even know what the word evangelical meant, at that point. I was bonding with Jesus in a very powerful way like the people who were my early teachers. One of my early teachers was teaching a bunch of kids my age in a back yard, sitting in a lawn chair, smoking a cigarette in this kind of FDR-style cigarette holder!
    People were reading Soren Kierkegaard and Dietrich Bonhoeffer and C.S. Lewis. This was my earliest imprint, branding of faith -- and I think there are a whole lot of evangelical pastors out there like me who came to faith in their early 20s or their teen years, during that era.
    And, like little ducklings, what we imprinted with was not this thing we came to call evangelicalism in this country. It was something else. And, now, a lot of us are in our 50s and we're waking up and saying: Hey, we're the adults now and this thing has become something other than what first drew us in.
    This is a real awakening going on. We're realizing that what we're selling in this thing we call evangelicalism, younger people aren't buying. And we're beginning to realize -- and to say -- that a lot of what's being done today in the name of this movement isn't true to the way that we came to faith.

    DAVID: I'm hearing this from a lot of voices across the whole landscape. There's this feeling that it's time to strip away a whole lot of baggage people sold us as essential parts of these religious brands. I think people are realizing that somebody else sold people a whole bill of goods about religion in this country. Beneath that veneer, though, there's a powerful spiritual experience. There's a powerful faith.
    KEN: Absolutely. Yup. Absolutely. And we're sitting here in Ann Arbor, this very unusual city, this very thoughtful place that -- what do people say? Ann Arbor is 15 years ahead of the rest of the culture in a lot of ways.
    Perhaps we're in an ideal place here where this can be said. We need to strip away and rethink all of this political stuff that was attached to what it means to follow Jesus.

    DAVID: I wish you well in that journey. It's daring. Our mutual friend Phyllis Tickle wrote the Foreward for your book. She understands the importance of your voice -- and what you're doing.
    The highest praise I can give to your book is to say how much I like where it winds up in the final chapters and to say: This is a dangerous book. Dangerous in an exciting and prophetic way.
    I want to give you a chance to wrap up our interview by directly telling people just a bit about what you hope they'll take away from "Jesus Brand Spirituality." We're going to film another video clip here and give you a chance to close this by speaking directly to people.

    CLICK on the video screen, below, and Ken will explain a little more about what he hopes to accomplish in this book. If your version of this story does not display a video screen, then Visit YouTube directly to watch Ken Wilson talk about his new book, "Jesus Brand Spirituality."

    (** What Ken was explaining here is that he didn't go full-time to an evangelical seminary, so he didn't have the lengthy, on-campus experience that shapes the careers of thousands of pastors. However, he did some Ashland Seminary course work toward a master's degree in Detroit.)

    COME BACK TOMORROW, if you're intrigued by the book by Christine Wicker that we mentioned above in this Conversation. Tomorrow, we talk to Christine Wicker about her take on this changing religious landscape.
    Our whole theme this week is learning to live peacefully in the midst of diversity. We looked at Islam on Monday, songs of diversity on Tuesday and now we're exploring the diverse voices of change in the evangelical realm. Don't miss Friday, either. We'll return to popular culture on Friday and look at diversity -- at the movies!

    PLEASE, tell us what you think. You can click on the "Comment" link at the end of online versions of this story. Or, you can Email ReadTheSpirit Editor David Crumm.

    OR, click on the "Digg" link below and add a very brief "digg" comment -- even a phrase -- to this story's listing on Digg-It, which will tell even more folks worldwide that it's worth reading:

Comments

[ken wilson]

David, I did misspeak when I said I didn't attend an evangelical seminary. I did take "at a distance" classes at Ashland Seminary--maybe half way to an M.A. degree, but one class per semester at best on the Wayne State campus in Detroit, so not the evangelical seminary experience exactly. ken

[Luke]

What a great story Ken Wilson has to tell. Too bad it is so sad. Instead of traveling in the light of Jesus Christ, Ken has chosen the old wide path of the third century mystics. We all know where that path leads. Ken has forgotten how to grow his faith, or maybe he never really knew. In any case we will continue to pray for Ken and those who stumble down the wrong path with him. Pretty soon it will be time to call the Ghost Busters to get rid of all the unclean spirits Ken seems to attract with his vision quests.

[Don Bromley]

Luke, I've read the book and have known Ken for 13 years. Yes, many have travelled the path of mysticism. The Lord Jesus, the Apostle Paul and St. John were first century mystics. Athanasius was a third century mystic. Augustine was a fourth century mystic. Clare of Assisi was a twelfth century mystic. Ignatius of Loyola was a fifteenth century mystic, George Fox was a seventeenth century mystic.... and Ken Wilson is a twenty-first century mystic.

[Luke]

Don,
Mysticism is certainly old...but to place Jesus Christ and Paul the Apostle in the category is just plain false teaching. It is not the gospel Jesus Christ preached nor the one Paul preached. In fact Paul called down God's curse on your way of preaching a different gospel. So how is it turning out for those other mystics? Jesus told us of Heavens promise and the Bible is real plain in telling us what happens to mystics, false teachers and the myriad of unsaved souls. We still pray for all of you though and offer you God's grace when you return to Father God through renewed faith by renewing your mind with God's Word.

[Loren]

Any spiritual person who is down on mysticism doesn't understand it. Mysticism is the union of God and man through devotion, proper teaching, meditation, meditation techniques, and right conduct. Mysticism is our best hope of being one with Christ, his teaching and his Father. No one in the history of humanity has ever walked with God without mysticism.

[Luke]

Any true Christian knows that the greatest error of mysticism lies in the fact that mystics think that they can initiate contact with Father God. The Word teaches us that God will initiate contact with whom He chooses...irregardless of how great we think we are in our own "divinity". Mystics are simply people who have so little faith that God will interact with them that they turn towards the occult world of the mystic. Christians are taught the truth...that it is only through prayer and supplication that we can hope to be connected and experiencing our Father in our lives. As a good writer once said, about wrong spiritual teaching like mysticism, "Even if that were true, I think it would be wrong to teach it.". What way do you prove or reprove that the spirit you contact is the real Spirit that baptizes all true believers? What if you are wrong?

[Catherine]

Luke-
I think it might be wise to read Ken's book or even speak with him personally before making hasty declarations that he is leading people down the "wrong path." Additionally it would be helpful to cite Scripture to back up your statements if you are going to speak in generalities.

"By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." -John 13:35

What better way to "test the spirits" than to see the fruit of what is happening in the church Ken pastors? Feeding the hungry, giving to the poor, serving the community, looking after the widows and orphans, loving the unloved. All the things Jesus did and also admonishes us to do.

David- Thank you for a well-written article. I enjoyed it.

[Dave]

I read Ken's book and one of the underlying themes I took away from the book was that we as Christians all need to express a little more humility about our particular take on our personal Christian expression, and this is certainly the case for Evangelicals.

I lived for 15 years as part of an ecumenical Christian community that originally grew out of the kind of Jesus movement Ken talks about. It was comprised of over 2000 devout Christians from many Christian backgrounds, including both Roman Catholics and a diverse group of Protestants. At some point in our life together, we began to develop a prescribed formula for what it meant to be a true follower of Jesus. There was an extensive set of teachings for many facets of life (men's and women's roles, child rearing, Christian service) - much of it helpful. But there was also an underlying pressure to adhere to the "one size fits all" approach of the teachings. I should mention that the teachings were all based on Scripture as understood by the leaders, and expressions of these teachings can be found in various Catholic and Protestant segments today.

But after leaving the group I found myself doing a complete about-face from many of the teachings I had embraced so emphatically just a year before. This was a deeply humbling experience. How could I have been so sure that I was truly following Jesus when I later made a 180 degree turn, which provided a fresh opportunity to reconnect in my personal relationship with Jesus, in a way I hadn't in years?

As a member of Ken's congregation in Ann Arbor, I can say that he is deeply committed to the mission of Jesus to share the good news of the Kingdom, and uphold the orthodoxy of the Apostles Creed, while still offering an environment of open mindedness and acceptance that connects with people who wouldn't or couldn't set foot in a typical Evangelical church. Part of this appeal comes from the fact that Ken's church creates an environment of love and acceptance, and gives room for people to connect with the church (and Jesus) in whatever way they are able. For people who aren't ready to swallow the Christian message hook, line and sinker, it provides a critical foot in the door. Then Jesus has an opportunity to reveal himself in his own way and according to His timetable. Because there isn't a "Get your act together, before you come" mentality, it makes for a messier kind of Christianity, but one I believe that is closer to the model Jesus pioneered.

[Luke]

Catherine,
I have read Ken's book and I liked it...I just do not agree with Ken. I have spoken to Ken on a few occasions. I even love Ken as a fellow Christian. I have contributed financially to Ken's church and still do. I still do not agree with him. Ken's church does many fine social works. Ken is a good person and a true friend to the world he lives in. Being a really good person and a friend to the world does not mean you are a friend of God. Works salvation does not work for God. Jesus said that if you are in Him the world will persecute you. Catherine you said it would be helpful to mention scripture to back up my statements...how about my statements just being scripturally based in the truth of the Word? How about you reading the following scripture verses regarding the mystical path Ken is on: Genesis 3:5, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 1:8, 2 John 1:9-11, Ephesians 5:11, 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Deuteronomy 18:9-12, 2 Corinthians 11:13-15, Ephesians 6:12 and Isaiah 14:12-14. These are just a few Bible passages that speak to the "wrongness" of mysticism and its' associated practices, rituals and rites. My question still stands and remains unanswered...What if you are wrong?

[Sean]

I think what Luke said was pretty accurate. I have read the book by Ken Wilson. We even discussed the first chapter of it tonight at our Small Church Home Group. All of us know Ken personally. Some of us have talked with Ken, I have contributed to Ken's church financially, Everyone loves Ken to pieces. He is a good well intentioned man who does many good social works and directs many of the same. He is a true friend of the world. If good works led to salvation Ken would be a sure thing for Heaven. It seems that that the only way to salvation however is "Repent and Believe". That is, change your worldly ways and believe on Jesus Christ as the ONLY WAY! When Catherine says it would be better for Luke to give scriptural references to back up his statements, it tells me Catherine has not done her homework, to test all things against the Word. Here are some Scripture she should have come across in her duty of reproving anyones preaching. Matthew 7: 22-23, Galatians 1:8, 2 John 1:9-11, Ephesians 5:11, 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Deuteronomy 18:9-12, 2 Corinthians 11:13-15, Ephesians 6:12, Isaiah 14:12-14 and Genesis 3:5. There are more verses that talk about spirit divination, false teaching and departing souls from sound doctrine but I pray you get the point and you will test all teaching against the Word. It is really a shame that people feel the Word of God is to be taken as a "hook, line and sinker" as Dave indicates. Faith has us believe that the message of Christ is the LIFELINE thrown to a drowning world. As Jesus said "He is the way, the truth and the life." ONLY those who believe in Him will have eternal life with the Father. The door to Christ is only open to those who repent and believe. No one, absolutely no one, gets to put only a foot in the door. You either commit with your whole being or you get absolutely nothing. God knows what is in your heart. That may be the primary reason so many "professed believers" do not experience the goodness of the Lord in their lives. Their lips say yea yea but their hearts say nay nay. Jesus still presents a very simple message, not messy nor mystical nor driven by the inner spirits of the enemy, just simply by the Spirit, the simple message of REPENT and BELIEVE. That is the Fathers' Jesus and that is our Jesus! Look it up in the Word of God. Be blessed in your journey and may you come to experience God as all the true saints have and do.

[REV COLLINS KUSI APPIAH]

very interesting

[Dave]

Since I was referenced in Sean's entry I'd like to clarify the intent of my earlier statement. I wasn't trying to disparage the importance of a life fully surrendered to Christ by my "hook, line and sinker" and "a foot in the door" references.

My point was that there are a lot of wounded people out there, and some of those wounds have come from either painful past church experiences or, for those without a religious background, from insensitive Christians (I speak as a former insensitive and at times heavy-handed Christian). Other wounds may have come from dysfunctional families with the end result that the abused have difficulty trusting others, or feel unworthy to be around "good people".

Jesus was criticized for associating with "Sinners", by the respected religious folk of His day (the Pharisees) not only because He associated with them, but also because He dared to enter their world, and meet them where they were at. It was because of His great compassion for those outside of the mainstream of religious life and His willingness to break with religious conventions, that we can be a part of His body today (after all as Gentiles we were outsiders - completely cut off from the true faith). Another example of His radical willingness to offer a "no strings attached" act of love and acceptance would be the healing of the Roman centurion's servant. Remember, Jesus was originally going to go to the soldier's house, which was a huge no-no.

While Jesus didn't compromise His own faith He ate, drank, and socialized with people deemed "Unclean" by the pious folk (reference the dinner party at Matthew's house). And He didn't lead off the evening by pointing out their sins and requesting their repentance. It's because He entered their lives and made a place for these people in His life that He was able to show His love and impact their lives. A similar approach can be seen in His calling of the disciples - change through osmosis.

This is, I believe, is the goal of Ken's Vineyard Church. I've heard a lot of his sermons ( I've been associated with Ken's church for a long time - some of it pre-Vineyard) and never felt that he was encouraging people to do anything other than love God with a full heart and with full devotion. His language however doesn't include a lot of the church jargon that can often intimidate a newcomer. He also has a strong inclination to dwell on God's love as opposed to God's judgement. Jesus' messages aimed at the needy and the poor, also seemed to take this approach.

I'm old enough to have experienced a lot of different Christian faith-groups (unfortunately I've done my fair share of judging other Christians whose expression, behavior, or theology didn't align with mine) and for my money, the Ann Arbor Vineyard as led by Ken offers the closest model I have experienced to the mode Jesus employed - that is allowing people to belong first, warts and all (this is where the messiness comes in), and then be changed by the love of Christ (often expressed through the love and acceptance of their brothers and sisters) and in God's time, begin to see their lives transformed into the image of Christ. This process includes repenting and believing.

[Luke]

Dave,
Good doctrinal discussion is always welcome and in fact we Christians are encouraged to do just that...by the Word. Your "hook, line and sinker" reference was not only disparaging but it was quite offensive. I was wounded by your statements. Dave, you have been a Christian a lot longer than I have been but I will bet I have been wounded by your kind of "Church Person" more often than most. I think you should take another long look in the mirror, you may be looking into the eyes of what you really do not want to be. But then, I have been hurt by bigger "Christians" than you. And yet I still love you, because it is what my Lord Jesus Christ would have me do. No matter what our circumstance is, when we come to salvation it is simply because we have decided to change(repent) and believe. It is only in Christ Jesus that we can have remission of our own sins and healing from the hurts caused in us by others of this world. When I am around "good people" I know I am worthy because they afford me all the love that Jesus Christ has for His followers. I have always vowed to try and follow the example of Jesus Christ when in conversation with others...simply listen and speak (or write)while letting God, through the Spirit, speak or write for me. That way I do not have to use phrases like "in other words" or "my point was". I do appreciate and commend you for at least offering an apology of sorts. I pray we can now move on to your letter and if you would allow me I have a few questions and observations to share with you.

Jesus was a Pharisee himself was He not? His biggest claim was that most Pharisees were corrupting the Word of God by not having actions that were matched with God's will for all of the Jews. Jesus spent how much of His time and energy with gentiles? His "no strings attached" act of love and kindness was because the Roman Centurion had as Jesus Christ said "No greater faith (in me) have I seen". The Centurion had faith that Jesus was who they said He was. Who knows, maybe that Centurion later repented and became a Christian himself.

Dave, you point out that Jesus ate,drank and socialized with the "unclean"... "the sinners". Since our Lord was the only human being to walk this world that was not an "unclean sinner" who else was He to socialize with? Most Jews of the time would have told you they were all humans...unclean and sinners by their very nature. The Bible is pretty clear that Jesus showed everyone love and understanding but please tell me how many examples are in the Word, of Jesus going back to socialize time and again with a group of people who did not hear His message of salvation. Osmosis as a way of change? Osmosis means "the diffusion of fluid through a semipermeable membrane until there is an equal concentration of fluid on either side of the membrane". I think you are striving to make the term "change" stand for something that happens by assimilation. Actually Jesus, and the Bible is real clear on this point, taught His disciples Scripture and made it real enough to them so that they could embrace fully the act of repentance and believing.

Ken Wilson, and I have listened to many of his sermons (archived ones for the most part), is truly a wonderful man. I have stated many times and to many people and to Ken himself that I hold the deepest love and respect for him and his ministry. I too Dave, know how religiosity in jargon can turn people off. Words and phrases(jargon) like..."Jesus Brand Spirituality"..."contemplative prayer"..."centering prayer"..."vision quest"..."center set church"..."static times"...Dave, Ken's book and his preaching have virtually hundreds of these "jargon" type phrases and words. While Ken chooses to concentrate on God's love for His children he has chosen to not tell the believers that God also will judge us after we die. At that point it really won't matter how good we have been. It will only matter if we changed and believed in only Lord Jesus Christ. While Ken's intent is wonderful and inclusive his preaching is full of (your words)"church jargon". At best this would seem to be erroneous teaching but at worst blasphemy. Why does he try to intimidate newcomers, and Dave he does try to intimidate newcomers because I was one once. Please help him not to lose sight of the Great Commision, Dave.

Dave, I am definitely older than you and I know I have been involved with and experienced more faith groups than you have. I am so very thankful that God has always directed my path in these matters. I judged and judge no one...ever. Early on God showed me how to judge all "things" against His Word. The model of the church you profess to follow at The Vineyard does not exist in Scripture only in Ken's book. Take the Good News of Salvation out to all the nations Dave...let the people use their will to REPENT AND BELIEVE...then welcome them into the "Church of Brotherhood in Christ Jesus". It is Gods' great design and plan for all of us who will believe in Him. Dave, do you really think God wants us to circumvent His way by employing the OSMOSIS principle. The question still remains..."What if you are wrong?" Please read the Book...Bible...the inspired and inerrant Word of God! No hype no jargon just plain TRUTH. May God bless you on your journey and may He guide your ways with His presence.